You say god cannot lie? He said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate from the 'Tree'.. yet they did not die. He said nothing about sin, he said that they would die.

Muslim View

The Muslim Perspective

I can only assume you are speaking about the Biblical account of the creation story, because in the Qur'an He told them that if they ate from the tree they would be wrongdoers (Quran 2:35). After eating from the tree, they were expelled from Paradise and told that Earth would be their dwelling place for a time (Quran 2:36). Thereafter, God forgave them of their sin (Quran 2:37).

Perhaps what is intended from the passage you read was that they would be mortal, instead of living in Paradise forever.

Muslim view Christian view

Christian View

The Christian Perspective

by Timothy McCabe

Genesis 2:16-17 (NASB)
The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

At first glance, it is difficult to see how this was true, according to the Genesis narrative. After all, the day that Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, they didn't fall down dead. Instead, Genesis tells us that they continued to live and had many children afterwards.

However, with any ancient, translated text it is important to remember that the modern English translation never does perfect justice to the original. In this case, the original was written in ancient Hebrew, not modern English.

Before we jump to conclusions, surely it would seem odd that the individual who put Genesis together would portray his God in such a way as to be completely wrong about something such as this, and provide no commentary whatsoever on the situation... no justification or explanation as to why His God made such an error. It seems far more probable that what was meant by the author is for some reason lost in the translation.

The New American Standard Bible (NASB), the version quoted above, is about as close to a literal word-for-word translation of the Bible to modern American English as we can currently find. Most of the time, this is a good method of translating for study purposes, but many people find the NASB a bit less flowing and more difficult to read than a thought-for-thought version like the New Living Translation (NLT).

Imagine trying to translate the following statement into a foreign language:

"That was a piece of cake -- I could do it in my sleep."

A word-for-word translation would tend to render each word literally, telling readers that the speaker's piece of cake could be done in his sleep, a statement that would have absolutely no coherent meaning in any other culture or language.

A thought-for-thought translation would be more likely to take the meaning of the statement, rather than the exact words, and render that meaning in the words and context of the receptor language. It would probably come out kind of like the following:

"That was so easy -- I could do it in my sleep."

Indeed, when we read the New Living Translation (NLT) version of the same scriptures:

But the LORD God warned him, "You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden -- except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die."

This version certainly makes a lot more sense given the rest of the Genesis narrative, but is it really a legitimate translation of the text? Based on my research, it appears as though the Hebrew can carry the meaning:

"...in that day, your death will be sure."

In other words, it seems to me that the text has God saying that Adam and Eve guaranteed their own deaths on the day that they ate from the tree, and not that God is saying that they would actually fall down dead on that very day.

Comments

"...because in the Qur'an He told them that if they ate from the tree they would be wrongdoers (Quran 2:35)"

But Shaheed, that can't be actually true because before eating the fruit of the tree, they acted out a wrongdoing ALREADY in '''choosing''' to rebel against God. The 'to make a choice' precedes the 'acting out' thereof, and I argue that having intent or resolution to transgress is a transgression in itself, and therefore Eve and Adam had sinned/betrayed God before eating of the fruit - that is, they were wrong-doer's prior to the fruit's ingestion.

How do we work around this?

— Theseus

Dear Timothy,

I have been reading quite a few of your answers and I wanted to tell you that I enjoy your analogies. Nothing constructive; just a compliment.

— Gabriel Yirak

Thanks Gabriel! God bless you!

— Timothy McCabe

Theseus you bring up a very good point. Shaheed did his best, but God's actual book is in the original Arabic. The verse brother Shaheed quoted is a *translation* of the Quran. The actual word in the Quran is dhalimeen. Dhalimeen, like almost every arabic word can mean multiple things, but you have to choose the right one(s), because thats a fundamental of comparative religions. Dhalimeen can mean wrongdoers, but it can also mean one who burdens themselves. See the actual story of Adam is that he didn't sin. All Prophets, Islamically, are infallible. Not ABSOLUTELY infallible, that's God. But relative to other human beings they have more knowledge so they choose to avoid the wrong, making them sinless, making them infallible. We see in Quran 2:30 God says to the Angels (BEFORE Adam was created) "I am going to make a vicegerent on EARTH. Meaning God's command is that man ill be on Earth, so no matter what he does (eat from said tree, or not, the decree is he will be on earth. period.)

— Moe

Ergo, when you OBEY the decree of God, that is always good, never bad. Therefore Adam eating from the tree was always a good thing. SECOND same verse 30 God says on Earth meaning there was no falling from paradise, it was just an earthly garden with special protections so Adam would be oblivious to his sexuality, much like a child until hitting puberty. God ADVISES Adam to stay away from the tree (tree is not bad, if the tree of knowledge is bad, God doesn't want us getting knowledge, which means all attempts at knowledge are damned like God damned Adam, Eve, and all humans..oops thats christianity, back to Islam) God advises Adam to stay away as long as possible from this tree, because once Adam eats, then sexuality is discovered, and the test begins. So when God said advisingly, do not approach this tree, because if you do you will burden yourself, he did not say if you do (obey me) you will be a wrongdoer. Which is counterintuitive since God is all good. Anyway...later on you see

— Moe

that Adam (supposedly) asks for forgiveness. He says the same arabic root word dhalamtu. (I have "burdened myself", NOT "sinned") When he says the Arabic word "taghfir" which CAN but does NOT have to mean forgive, it can also mean PROTECT. The ACTUAL CORRECT translation of what the Arabic Quran says is "O Our Lord, we have burdened ourselves (with this life) and if you do not protect us, we will not be of the successful ones. If you want proof that this word taghfir does NOT mean forgive, then I urge you to open up Quran 48:2 where it says: God will PROTECT you (Muhammad) of allegations made in the past and future. If it meant forgive, then how can God forgive something in the future? it's like Him making me pay for next weeks prayers. But I haven't experienced that time, hence I am unaccountable. I also urge you to look up Sura nasr Chapter 110. The last verse uses the same word. And hits the point home beautifully. "When you see people entering the religin of

— Moe

Allah in multitudes, and the great victory comes about (paraphrasing) then praise your Lord, and ask for (forgiveness??) PROTECTION. Meaning without asking God for his aid and PROTECTION, victory/success is impossible. Adam, as an infallible Prophet knew this, hence in his prayer he asked for protection so that he, his wife, and all his progeny could have victory in this test of life. IF he was asking for FORGIVENESS, for a SIN, which was LEGISLATIVELY a command of God, not advice..then I bring the following argument: The Quran says God accepted the prayer. if it was forgiveness, and God forgave Adam, he should've gone back to that protected state. However he doesn't, neither do he or his wife ever ask for it. Hence proving once and for all that Adam (or any prophet for that matter) NEVER sinned. Also, logically, why would God EXPOSE his representatives in the SAME BOOK?? It's like sending an ambassador to another country and then sending documents that make him look like an idiot.

— Moe

Interestingly enough, if Adam never sinned (WHICH in all reality he didn't) then there's no original sin. And if there's no original sin, then there's no need for the *ahem* "vicarious atonement of Jesus christ" which is fancy fluff, for Jesus HAD to die. Not anymore, if Adam never sinned. And therefore by 1 Corinthians 15:17...the Christian faith is once again proven to be in vain. i.e. false.

— Moe

Or if you don't want to read all of that, you may watch two lectures, which explain it INFINITELY better than I do. found here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUj2hwEa_I

and here(part 2):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0bYB6pb_2s&feature=related

if you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask, I'll try my best.

— Moe

Moe,

If you are interested or know someone who may be, please check this out:

http://www.godcontention.org/apply.php

— Webmaster

The Islamic answers are damn impressive. In this and other topics. But for me the facts of existence are far more easily accounted for by the absence of a guiding intelligence.

— \__/\__/

Moe, I read through your response and what had me scratching my head is that your wrote " God's actual book is in the original Arabic". If im correct, the old testatment of the Bible or written Torah is written in Hebrew except for Ezra and Daniel which were written in Aramaic. Your explanation started from a transalation of what you call orginal Arabic translation. Unless Hebrew is orginal Arabic, it seems as if you tried to create smoke and mirrors to prove your point.

— DH

They did die... not immediate death but due to sin the human life ends.

— Greg

I appreciate the scholarship on both sides, however I felt compelled to question Moe's attempt to point out the view that Adam never sinned. Even if you want to translate the Arabic as wrongdoer as opposed to sinner, the context is still the same. The argument could easily be made that the translators of Genesis could have done likewise, but because they operated on the premise of understand that the punishment for sin or wrongdoing is death, it's a simple conclusion to draw. Whether you choose to translate from Arabic in the Qu'ran, Greek or Hebrew for the Old testament, or even English today, the linguistical arguments can often become too involved. Remember the Pharasees? Sometimes we forget that it isn't about the word choices, it's about the motive of the heart. Where do your intentions come from? Your own or God? Whether you're an everyday man, or a prophet from Islam, sin, and the consequence of it, is still the same whether you choose to do it or not.

— Chad

Here is the problem with that. We see Adam as a body which had a soul but the Bible says that God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. God is a Spirit. The Bible tells us that God walked with Adam in the cool of the day but after Jesus was resurrected his disciples were afraid because they thought that he was a spirit. Jesus answered them, Behold my hands and feet. A spirit has not flesh and blood as you see me have. So feet are not something that God has. So, he himself "walked" with them and communicated with them in spirit. We hear of many times how God "spoke" to people but very rarely did he use an audible voice. I have the Holy Ghost and he "speaks" to me everyday but I have only heard him speak with an audible voice once or twice. The rest of the time words come to my spirit. Remember, the Word of God said that he was a living soul. When Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, his soul died...To Be Continued...

— Eugene Zohlmann

...from that time on we never hear of God speaking to Adam. You see he was speaking to his living soul and not to his physical body. Remember, God is a spirit and we were made in the image of God. He gave us a physical body to interact with the physical world but gave us a spirit so we could interact with him. From then until the death of Jesus men had to offer sacrifice or do other things to get God's attention because his spirit did not live in man anymore. Since Jesus died and was resurrected, we have the ability to receive his spirit once again since Jesus paid the price for our sins. When we receive the Holy Ghost, it is called being born again because the spirit man that died in Adam is alive again in us! So Adam ceased being a living soul and was then only a dying body. Death had come to his spirit man that day but it came for his physical body years later.

— Eugene Zohlmann

Eugene; you say "When Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, his soul died...." You later on go to say; "Death had come to his spirit man that day...". From this you imply that the spiri man and soul are the same. What do you say about 1Thes 5 v 23.

— Walter

Adam and Eve were made to live eternally. When they ate of the tree they were no longer eternal creatures. They would eventually die, as all men today die. God never said they would die immediately upon eating of the fruit.

— Autumn

Whatever, die or not...God put these two very dumb people in a situation with the most evil intelligent piece of garbage in the universe, they had no chance, they were so dumb they didn't even know they were naked and GOD punished them because of their pride...how can you be prideful if your so dumb and don't even know your naked.

God use's any excuse to punish and curse, just read Deuteronomy 28 and look around you.

What a merciful creator we have...snakes and all.

— bobby

Question.. does anyone realize thatthere is a reason for "gods math" . He says that in marriage 1+1equal 1 why has no one stopped to think that god is both a man and woman. Not hermaphrodite. But a single man and single woman. Together joinedin mmarriage. The reason forthere to be kindness and destruction. How else would he have not created 2 men. He would have had to known a woman.. correct?

— val

1) They DID die!
God never said they'd drop dead "on the spot!"
2) Also, Adam and Eve both "sinned" through the act of disobedience to God's command concerning the fruit. That is what sin is. The "fruit" could have an apple, a nut, a fig, or sex.
They were told to leave it alone and they didn't.

And there's more to that event than many have allowed to meet their mind.

— Sandra

The sin of Adam was disobedience, for the fruit was not poison, consider the apple and tree parable has a metaphor, it is not logical, that rises the question what sin did he commit to deserve death ?, has we know only murder has such outcome, since God is a spiritual being, we conclude that he killed innocence, second intentions arise and bad thought enter the mind.
This concludes that if a human being is born and commits no sin, that is, he is perfect, he will not die, witch is impossible in the world we live in.

— sergio

2 Peter 3:8
They did die in that day. He didn't mention a 24 hour day that we have come to know.
In fact, no human ever lived up to or past a thousand years or "one day."

— Ray

Most likely God meant spiritual death aka no eternal life. Hence Jesus spilling blood to make upfor our sins and us requiring baptism under him to redeem our tickets.

— dinobot

Good point ray where does it say 1000years is a day again?

— dinosore

The kjv bible and most others I have read clearly states that Adam and Eve are ejected from the garden because god doesn't want them to eat from the tree of life because they would then, themselves, be like god. It has nothing to do with disobedience or sin. It has to do with a jealous god not wanting his creations to become his equals. If the bible is the inspired word it should require no interpretation and be taken literally. This also means Adam and Eve were not created as immortal beings, as there would be no need for the tree of life of they were.

— Spark

God lied adam and eve did not die because of eating fruit of knowledge they died because being cast out from garden eden and not to touch fruit of life and live forever.

— lius

they died because not allowed to touch the fruit of life
God is a liar

— lius

A better question might be, 'Why would an all powerful God provide us with His word, then allow it to be misinterpreted?' (In fact, by creating different languages in Genesis 11:1-9, God actually _causes_ His word to become mistranslated.)

— Dean

Adam did die. Your humanity can't digest that there was no death prior to Eve falling for sin and persuading Adam to partake of it. Spend your time tracking down the human DNA Chain than only could have formed by intelligent design... Your eternity rests in the accuracy of your failure to understand truth.

— David

The literal rendering of the text that is translated "you shall surely die" in English should actually be translated "dying you shall die" which means "you will continue to die until you are dead." So, of course, God did not lie to Adam and Eve.

— Chris

They were gonna die anyway. That is made clear because they were put out of the garden so as not to eat of the tree of everlasting life. They weren't meant to live forever. The serpent didn't lie and it was confirmed at the end of the chapter.

— Neal wyms

I don't really understand why there needs to be so much work done in order to understand simple lines from this text. If it were intended to be available to every single person, why would there be so many issues regarding translation and comprehension? Shouldn't it be made clear from the get-go without needing to check the original text every other line?

— Chris

Problem is, the word "in" implies something specific, "in the day", not "as of the day", not even "on the day". It was a straightforward lie, IMHO. I mean, ask yourself, 'what would Eve have understood it as?' (the consequence, or threat, if you will)...seems at best deceptive to me, unfair, and not that it 'ultimately' matters, since it all means losing an infinite life (bad). But I have no issue with a 'God' who lies, if he chooses to; I just want honesty from those who apologetically purport it so seemingly wrong. Making excuses for 'God' isn't a way to please 'Him', imho, but I could be wrong about that, too...lol

— Tim Marrier

The main MISTAKE everyone on this thread makes is calling that Murdering Entity God. NOT God but a conglomeration of Anunnaki the JEWS plagiarized to write THEIR version of a Monotheistic Entity. The JEWS Entire Identity is based on 2 lies. 1. There is only ONE GOD=FALSE as the 4th word of Genesis is ELOHIM which is PLURAL and means LOFTY ONES. The second LIE is that they and they alone are THAT God's chosen. FALSE FALSE FALSE......Allah and THVH are part of the same Aliens known as the ANUNNAKI

— Thoth al Khem

You say god cannot lie? He said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate from the 'Tree'.. yet they did not die. He said nothing about sin, he said that they would die.

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