All proposed evidence vanishes when investigated. It either turns out to be false, or it can't be verified, or it has obvious natural explanations and therefore is not actually evidence of anything supernatural, much less a god.
The existence of human reason cannot be ultimately explained by appealing to non-rational causes. It can only be ultimately explained by appealing to rational causes.
Why does a calculator claim that 1 + 1 = "2" instead of "73" or "the color green"? Why do we trust the assertions of a calculator when we need an accurate answer? Alternatively, how would a Magic-8-Ball answer those same questions? If we ask a Magic-8-Ball what 1 + 1 is, we are likely to get an answer like "No" or "The future is not yet clear" or some other complete and total nonsense.
Ask yourself why you would trust the conclusions of a calculator, but you would not trust the conclusions of a Magic-8-Ball. The answer is that a calculator has been rationally programmed by a rational programmer to come up with rational answers. A Magic-8-Ball has not. A calculator bases its assertions on rational principles provided by its rational creator. A Magic-8-Ball does not.
A Magic-8-Ball's answers are the product of a lack of reasoned consideration. Its claims are generated by a combination of gravity and buoyancy rather than inductive or deductive thought applied to the question.
But a calculator's answers are only rational because of the creator of the calculator. If the calculator had been created without any kind of rational programmer, its conclusions would be no more reasoned than those of the Magic-8-Ball. Its claims would be no more rational than if no thought had been put into a reasoned conclusion at all.
Of course, you may ask a Magic-8-Ball a question that fits one of its predefined answers, and it may so happen that it is shaken just-so, such that the answer it gives happens to be correct. This does not make the answer rational. It does not mean that there is any justified reason for the answer. It certainly does not mean you would be justified in believing the Magic-8-Ball.
It is only without reason that anyone could hold beliefs that are generated without reason. And, if there is no God, then everything, including our own beliefs, are generated without reason. The only way we ourselves can possibly be rational is if we are rationally programmed.
A rejection of God is the most plainly irrational perspective anyone could ever hold.
Premise 1: Any belief ultimately formed by non-reasoning causes is ultimately believed without reason.
Premise 2: If there is no God, every belief is ultimately formed by non-reasoning causes.
Conclusion: Therefore, if there is no God, every belief is ultimately believed without reason.
When people say that if there is no God, then there is no reason for anything, they aren't just talking about some grand purpose for their own lives. They aren't just talking about some ultimate goal for all of reality. No, when we say there is no reason for anything without God, what we mean is that there is no reason for anything. There is no reason to think that 1 + 1 is 2. There is no reason to think anything at all. Everything -- every thought, every sentence, every single word -- is reduced to meaningless nonsense.
The Bible gets it right when it tells us "the fool says in his heart that there is no God" (Psalm 14:1, 53:1). We must declare ourselves irrational fools if we declare there is no God. God alone is where human reason can find rational justification.
So why do so many people claim that God does not exist? Or why do so many people claim that there is no evidence for God?
The Bible again has the answer. It says that we as humans often prefer sin over truth (Romans 1:18). We often suppress what we know to be true in favor of falsehood because we prefer the falsehood! The falsehood does not judge us. It does not condemn us. It will not send us to hell. After all, if there is no God, I cannot be justly condemned by anyone! What a wonderful world that would be!
But suppressing the truth of our own moral obligations, and our own failure to live up to them (Romans 3:23), does not actually make those truths go away. One day we will stand before a righteous and just God, and we will have to account for our own disobedience (Matthew 25:32).
That's the bad news.
However, the good news is that our creator God is not only just and righteous, He is also forgiving and merciful. He has offered each and every one of us forgiveness, if we will accept the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus, on our behalf (John 3:16-18). Christ lived the perfect life that we should have lived, and He was executed by crucifixion, suffering the awful consequences that we each deserve.
He told us that if we trust in Him, if we have faith in Him, if we follow Him, we can be made right with God (Matthew 10:32-33). Then, He rose from the dead to prove that He had the power to do what He said He could do (John 2:22; Romans 8:34)!
You yourself can be right with God today -- right now -- through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9).
Pretending God isn't there will not make Him go away. It will only lead to an eternity of regret.
if by god you mean generator operator destroyer, then every breath received is proof. that is if you get out of it's way and allow it it's infinite space.
—
roger
No
God is probably just an unproved theory for all that we don't yet understand.
Belief with out evidence (faith in god) is just making up the answers. Why rely on your imaginary friend?
—
Atheist
Tim,
How do you know your god is rational?
—
A Philosopher writes...
That is NOT Proof of God's Existence!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Isho/Yeshua Ben Hamashiach was a Failed Prophet & Jesus The Christ was an Invention of Saul of Tarsus.........................
—
sean
shut up for a second and ask yourselves a question... How can you survive without believing in something? God is a bigger escence than us, just like the universe. People that deny God are afraid of accepting different and supernatural things.
—
rational person
To answer this question, we would first have to define god. Are we referring to the Judaeo Christian God, Allah, Zeus? If the christian one, which denomination specifically as each says things a little different. Unfortunately, in all cases, there IS and HAS NEVER BEEN any independently verifiable proof of existence. Only personal feelings, and hear say.
—
thinkaboutit
You can't just assume that there has to be a creator.
The facts and laws of this world are not dependent upon a creator. Assuming that a creator has to be present and responsible for these things is outdated thinking.
Also, if you are right and there is a god, then which one should we worship? I have been through many religions, and they all claim the absolute truth. Even Buddhism does this.
It's really sad, because you have so many minds that are sharp, that are being devoted towards these ancient books, when they could be making extensive contributions to the fields of science, mathematics, and skeptical reason.
—
Harry
I've been told these things before, too. I remember hearing preachers say that Allah holds up glass cups of water on tables and that Allah is the one who makes the shadow follow the form under the sunlight. Both of these claims are nonsense. The table holds up the cup, the shadow is intrinsic to the form. No god required.
—
Harry
In addition, the Christian doctrine of original sin is nonsense.
We don't deserve the "awful" consequences that jesus supposedly endured. Many people are good people, moral people.
Also, putting people in hell for not believing in you is an evil thing to do. If there is a god that does things like this just for not believing in him, then he's a narcissistic, sociopathic god that isn't deserving of worship.
Morality comes from biology, and not religion.
—
Harry
Yes, i had experience with god. He actually override my thinking with his beautiful thinking very often. I experience the miracle for one reason that i should realise myself thereby realise paramatma
—
Naveen
if god isn't real, then why is dog backwards "god"
—
Persephone
Never Mind Them... " Seeing Is Believing " How Many Times Have You see your brain ?
therefore they are senseless beings
—
adegbehin
I agree with Persephone. God spelled backwards is Dog, dog spelled backwards is santa, santa spelled backwards is satan. Therefore god and satan are the same.
—
mephistopheles
Matter (the universe, earth, the sun, etc.) cannot come from nowhere. No one has ever seen matter created from nothing. This is the dead end for all "rational" systems. Even evolution essentially ignores this question because it doesn't match everything else in the theory. The God of the Holy Bible states that even without having Scripture, there are miracles all around us in everything that goes on on earth and in the universe. Why is man so different than the rest of the animals on earth? Just blind luck? Don't think so.
—
Red
The world is cruel, full of ignorant, prejudiced, easily swayed, deceivers, the deceived, immoral, unethical, and oppressive.
I've suffered every kind of loss, have been imprisoned unjustly, tortured, humiliated in undignified ways, been mistreated, brutalized, robbed, and left for dead by others.
In my short experience here, I have learned faith from the things I've suffered and have found courage to trust in a God who I believe would die for me.
From what I have been through, men aren't essentially trustworthy or moral or kind, but those who are, seem rare and valuable to me. Generally, I trusted too much in the "goodness of mankind" only to find myself disappointed and heartbroken.
And through all of this, I held on to faith that God would hear my case, set me free, and judge all these things. A tornado leveled my family's house, killed my innocent 6-yr old brother in my pregnant mother's arms, before I was welcomed to this horrible place. Yet I still have faith? Yes. I do.
—
David
Is there any proof that I am naked?
Come on! Everyone knows God exists, especially those who campaign to deny it.
Yes, there is proof, in every single heart. God makes Himself known equally to all, "so that in the day of Judgment no man will have an excuse."
If He didn't make Himself that obvious, then you would have an excuse and not be held accountable. Am I just stating the obvious here? Or are there really people looking for proof of something they already know in their heart to be true? An obstinate man denies the obvious. No one even needs anyone to tell them, because all already know, He exists, and judges everyone equally. Those who deny God are just making themselves known to all as playing games and being brazenly caught as naked. No one is buying it. We all know. You can't hide. We know what you do in secret as well, and it's pretty shameful to even mention. Put clothes on. It's a shame if you really deny the evidence we all have inside.
Am I the only one saying this?
—
David
That's got to be the poorest argument for god i ever read;
Even if i accept the argument it does not prove God is limited to being one- nor does it prove your god specifically, why not suggest Allah and Yahweh agreed the laws of rationality between them?
Or just concede all Gods are equally real.
—
william mcmillan
Just believe in God or not. Live and let live, people. Belief in God doesn't cause any problems in civilization that call for atheism as a solution.
—
andy
Reason and logic are human constructs that are used to interpret our random world. Order is ultimately superfluous, and subjective to humans. 2 + 2 only means something to us. If humans disappear, all logic, math, and reasoning disappear with us. Your mistake is assuming human reasoning transcends us and assign it divine qualities.
—
Diego
Sorry for the double post, just wanted to add something. Your whole arguments is basically. "God exists because nihilism can not be true". But, you never explain why nihilism can not be true.
—
Diego
That Christian answer... I think we need a better Christian representative, that was very unconvincing. You are basing everything on assumptions that aren't airtight at all. I believe I saw the disproving of this on Wikipedia so I'd assume it's been disgarded for a long time.
—
S
Dear Rational Person that said:
shut up for a second and ask yourselves a question... How can you survive without believing in something?
Just as well as you do. I just don't lie to myself and pretend I know things I don't and I believe that is a general aspect of basic maturity. I don't need a god to exist, yours is abusive so I'm glad he probably doesn't. I think Christian's don't realize that God isnt any more necessary than a security blanket. To you it might mean the world, but other kids won't have or miss one, they're fine on their own.
—
S
David... You're wrong. That's just your Christian programming speaking. I think you are the one who unconsciously knows that none of this adds up. But Christian's call that "having doubts" as an abusive tactic to keep people in line. I literally thought I was crazy growing up because I was raised by adult Christian parents but as a child I just couldn't believe there was a god. I definitely couldn't believe in a soul existing. Because I thought my parents knew better than me I was fully convinced that I must be crazy or stupid. But I wasn't.
—
S
"S" believes that whatever made his own mind had no clue what it was doing.
—
Nerf Gun
I'm a Theist and just for that I'm around forever longer than those who have proof there is no God. God gifts and permits Satan to have the power of destruction which Atheists believe is a technique. I don't like God for the same reason you don't, it is a crap-hole here to be born in. I own this Earth and Natural Disasters are not "Acts of God " or "Climate Change" but Satan not getting the Christmas or Birthday presents everyday and throwing fits. I'm no leader, I'm here to make copies of myself so another persons life is worth more by bringing people down with them upon their fall and believe me, they will be preserved by those of concern. You can try all you want but I'm going to be dismissed as a troll and I'm not very constructive to solve the world's problems. I'm looking for my sister Lilith and then we can speak 'making love, not war'. Technology changes and Trees are obsolete.
" You can just try to kill me but don't make my life hard " http://wraparoundthevine.blogspot.com
—
Your Unholiness
A calculator's answers are not rational. Rationality is an observer-relative concept. That implies that an agent who has such a concept exists and applies it to what calculators are doing, based on some intentional or extensional convention (see Putnam, Searle, Tarksi, cf).
"I am rational" is judged entirely by whether that state of affairs seems to be appropriate.
"My beliefs are justified" is an entirely different proposition.
"P is true" is another, but all three are judged the same way ... not by who is making the statements but whether there are objective reasons, which may simply be "I can't help but think it's true" (see Kant et. al.)
—
Steve
"I am rational" is true of someone, S, just in case S has warrant for believing that "I am rational" is true ... which can be satisfied merely by the knowledge S has about her own beliefs, namely, that her beliefs are all justified.
S cannot fail to be wrong about being rational if S is following some epistemic norm, such as seeking truth.
Even if S held only justified beliefs but all her beliefs turned out to be false, she would not have failed to be rational.
Even if S is wrong about her own rationality, she cannot fail to be justified to believe "I am rational".
—
Steve
Steve,
Not positive I'm understanding your meaning here, but are you saying that a claim is rationally justified if the claimant "can't help but think it's true"?
If so, then it seems to me that virtually every irrational claim from virtually every lunatic -- ever -- would then be rationally justified.
If this is what you are asserting, then you are clearly discussing something totally different than what I am discussing. I am discussing the common concept of rational belief, commonly held by common people. Commonly, people don't find certain types of claims to be rational, regardless of how convinced the person making the claim is. Intense and unyielding conviction does not in itself even remotely connote rationality, let alone fully establish it.
—
Timothy McCabe
Mr. McCabe,
I'd be interested to know how you square your claim to be rational with your claim that you and I and Steve, and the "common people" to which you refer, don't actually exist in any real way but are merely figments of god's imagination? How can you be "rational" when you don't actually have a mind that exists outside of god's imagination, and the thoughts that you think you're thinking are merely god imagining you thinking those thoughts?
If a rational God causes us to come to rational conclusions, then our conclusions are rational. If a rational God causes us to come to irrational conclusions, then our conclusions are irrational.
On the other hand, if gravity alone (for example) ultimately causes us to come to our conclusions, then our conclusions are always irrational, as gravity has no reason in itself for what it does.
—
Timothy McCabe
Mr. McCabe,
A while ago, in a separate but related discussion, I asked you to tell me as precisely as possible what you mean by the words "real" and "tangible". You haven't answered me yet (I'm not casting aspersions about that btw, you're a busy man!!) but if you could answer that question it would help me to understand your position better and follow up on your comment immediately above.
Many thanks
—
Ozymandias
The belief that there is a supreme supernatural or preternatural person who is the creator, sustainer, or controller of the universe and all things in it, including humans, is known as the existence of God.
Comments
God is probably just an unproved theory for all that we don't yet understand.
Belief with out evidence (faith in god) is just making up the answers. Why rely on your imaginary friend?
How do you know your god is rational?
The facts and laws of this world are not dependent upon a creator. Assuming that a creator has to be present and responsible for these things is outdated thinking.
Also, if you are right and there is a god, then which one should we worship? I have been through many religions, and they all claim the absolute truth. Even Buddhism does this.
It's really sad, because you have so many minds that are sharp, that are being devoted towards these ancient books, when they could be making extensive contributions to the fields of science, mathematics, and skeptical reason.
We don't deserve the "awful" consequences that jesus supposedly endured. Many people are good people, moral people.
Also, putting people in hell for not believing in you is an evil thing to do. If there is a god that does things like this just for not believing in him, then he's a narcissistic, sociopathic god that isn't deserving of worship.
Morality comes from biology, and not religion.
therefore they are senseless beings
I've suffered every kind of loss, have been imprisoned unjustly, tortured, humiliated in undignified ways, been mistreated, brutalized, robbed, and left for dead by others.
In my short experience here, I have learned faith from the things I've suffered and have found courage to trust in a God who I believe would die for me.
From what I have been through, men aren't essentially trustworthy or moral or kind, but those who are, seem rare and valuable to me. Generally, I trusted too much in the "goodness of mankind" only to find myself disappointed and heartbroken.
And through all of this, I held on to faith that God would hear my case, set me free, and judge all these things. A tornado leveled my family's house, killed my innocent 6-yr old brother in my pregnant mother's arms, before I was welcomed to this horrible place. Yet I still have faith? Yes. I do.
Come on! Everyone knows God exists, especially those who campaign to deny it.
Yes, there is proof, in every single heart. God makes Himself known equally to all, "so that in the day of Judgment no man will have an excuse."
If He didn't make Himself that obvious, then you would have an excuse and not be held accountable. Am I just stating the obvious here? Or are there really people looking for proof of something they already know in their heart to be true? An obstinate man denies the obvious. No one even needs anyone to tell them, because all already know, He exists, and judges everyone equally. Those who deny God are just making themselves known to all as playing games and being brazenly caught as naked. No one is buying it. We all know. You can't hide. We know what you do in secret as well, and it's pretty shameful to even mention. Put clothes on. It's a shame if you really deny the evidence we all have inside.
Am I the only one saying this?
Even if i accept the argument it does not prove God is limited to being one- nor does it prove your god specifically, why not suggest Allah and Yahweh agreed the laws of rationality between them?
Or just concede all Gods are equally real.
shut up for a second and ask yourselves a question... How can you survive without believing in something?
Just as well as you do. I just don't lie to myself and pretend I know things I don't and I believe that is a general aspect of basic maturity. I don't need a god to exist, yours is abusive so I'm glad he probably doesn't. I think Christian's don't realize that God isnt any more necessary than a security blanket. To you it might mean the world, but other kids won't have or miss one, they're fine on their own.
" You can just try to kill me but don't make my life hard "
http://wraparoundthevine.blogspot.com
"I am rational" is judged entirely by whether that state of affairs seems to be appropriate.
"My beliefs are justified" is an entirely different proposition.
"P is true" is another, but all three are judged the same way ... not by who is making the statements but whether there are objective reasons, which may simply be "I can't help but think it's true" (see Kant et. al.)
S cannot fail to be wrong about being rational if S is following some epistemic norm, such as seeking truth.
Even if S held only justified beliefs but all her beliefs turned out to be false, she would not have failed to be rational.
Even if S is wrong about her own rationality, she cannot fail to be justified to believe "I am rational".
Not positive I'm understanding your meaning here, but are you saying that a claim is rationally justified if the claimant "can't help but think it's true"?
If so, then it seems to me that virtually every irrational claim from virtually every lunatic -- ever -- would then be rationally justified.
If this is what you are asserting, then you are clearly discussing something totally different than what I am discussing. I am discussing the common concept of rational belief, commonly held by common people. Commonly, people don't find certain types of claims to be rational, regardless of how convinced the person making the claim is. Intense and unyielding conviction does not in itself even remotely connote rationality, let alone fully establish it.
I'd be interested to know how you square your claim to be rational with your claim that you and I and Steve, and the "common people" to which you refer, don't actually exist in any real way but are merely figments of god's imagination? How can you be "rational" when you don't actually have a mind that exists outside of god's imagination, and the thoughts that you think you're thinking are merely god imagining you thinking those thoughts?
Common people seem to unanimously understand that fictional characters can have both rational and irrational beliefs. I don't see how your complaint is relevant to the topic.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/11-literary-characters-with-terrible-phobias/
If a rational God causes us to come to rational conclusions, then our conclusions are rational. If a rational God causes us to come to irrational conclusions, then our conclusions are irrational.
On the other hand, if gravity alone (for example) ultimately causes us to come to our conclusions, then our conclusions are always irrational, as gravity has no reason in itself for what it does.
A while ago, in a separate but related discussion, I asked you to tell me as precisely as possible what you mean by the words "real" and "tangible". You haven't answered me yet (I'm not casting aspersions about that btw, you're a busy man!!) but if you could answer that question it would help me to understand your position better and follow up on your comment immediately above.
Many thanks